Could Star Wars Be saved?

The one sentiment I don’t get is from the folks acting like Lucasfilm’s aggressive marketing for Star Wars in the sequel era is a new thing. Like both Return of the Jedi and Phantom Menace got quite a bit when they came out. With Jedi you even got two spinoff movies, an Ewok centered cartoon, and an On Ice show based off of the cartoon.

2 Likes

Sure. As I say my point is something of an oversimplification. For as bold a vision as RJ claimed to have for the film though, it didn’t feel to me like that radical a departure - had the same basic set pieces (throne room battles, Hoth-like planet with walkers etc) for example, and they did feel to me like a case of ‘Of course we love your vision, but we really feel like your vision would be enhanced if you included these story beats our researchers tell us resonant really strongly with core demographics’. I just don’t think someone who really wanted to tear the fabric of the franchise apart would opt to include that stuff.

yes, there are ALOT of unhappy never satisfied fans out there.

that being said, I LOVED Rebels. All new characters. Produced by Disney, done with heart and a solid respect for the franchise. All new characters, all new ideas. and a Bad Ass Vader/Ashoka fight. No Real Problem with it, what so ever.

as for Cannon, Lucas has always stated that anything seen ON SCREEN is cannon. The Books do not count, so he wouldn’t feel shackled to them later. Problem is, the books, and the characters in them, became Super popular, while WAITING for new cannon. You have characters that have never spoken a single word on screen, that have huge fan basis, like Anakin or Jaina Solo. Never mind Mara, Kaarde and Thrawn. Disney hasn’t come close to replicating that level of popularity yet. and from what I hear, their new books aren’t doing so great either. may comments I see about them want the old writers back.

As for the sequels, they wanted them out, and they wanted them out fast. that meant no, or very little planning. and if their WAS a plan, it got tossed out the airlock the moment Ruin Johnson came into the picture. That was the downward fall for everything.

IIRC, Solo had TWO directors. the two Comedy kids that shot EIGHTY PERCENT of a movie, before someone finally saw it, fired them, and brought in Ron Howard to reshoot most of it. I mean, how does that happen? just shows bad leadership.

1 Like

My theory is, the age of these new ‘show runners’. Most don’t earn their chops, and work their way up. sometimes they fail up. and when they do, we get stuff like She-Hulk and Masters: Revelations.

A good point in this really IS He-Man. And thundercats to a degree. For He-Man, We got two shows at once. one people where looking forward too, and one that got basically ignored (the CGI Show).

The one everyone hoped would be good, Revelations, turned out to be complete and utter crap. can’t discuss this one, because it has some, uh, adult themes(look up Evil-Lyn and Super Skeletor), too it that the old kid show didn’t have, and would go into politics. But, the show that no one had any interest in hope in, despite being DRASTICALLY altered from the source material…felt like REAL He-Man. This destroys the argument that people have, thinking old fans can’t get in on new stuff for a new age, as I LOVE the CGI he-man show. I’ll never watch season 2 of Revelations.

As for Thundercats: Same issue.

You had the 2011 Reboot. While it did have it’s problems (Mumm-Ra with no defined purpose or Magicianry…instead, he had more tech than magic)… it felt like it came from the right place, and respected the franchise as a whole. fans loved it, including myself, and wish it had a second season.

Fast Forward a few years later. Thundercats ROAR entered the picture. a Tumblrite cartoon art style, actively mocking the fans… even going so far as to higher larry kenny to reprise lion- o, and saying 'anyone who doesn’t like your new show is a poopy face with poopy opinions ’ . Actual dialogue, not a parody.

Disney Star wars, minus a few rare exceptions like Mando and Bad Batch, is more like Thundercats Roar than Thundercats 2011.

2 Likes

I have to say after reading all of this that I think your post should not be “Could Star Wars Be Saved?” but “Could Star Wars Be The Way I Want it To?” The answer is no, and it doesn’t have to be, and you are allowed to dislike it. But many other people love it. So, as has already said, nothing needs to be saved. It just doesn’t work for you. That’s fine. There are other franchises out there and maybe one of those will. But to act like this is some sort of problem across Star Wars fandom is ridiculous.

Also, I think Andor is terrific and I also did not care for Rogue One. A Star Wars show that doesn’t once mention The Force or Jedi is pretty refreshing.

5 Likes

“I LOVED Rebels. All new characters. Produced by Disney, done with heart and a solid respect for the franchise. All new characters, all new ideas. and a Bad Ass Vader/Ashoka fight. No Real Problem with it, what so ever.”

This is a good point. I thought Rebels started off poorly, but eventually it found its footing and it was a good Star Wars show. When a show respects the universe its in then it is entirely possible to do “new” stuff while still keeping the franchise within the the same sort of area that will satisfy long-term fans.

“Fast Forward a few years later. Thundercats ROAR entered the picture. a Tumblrite cartoon art style, actively mocking the fans… even going so far as to higher larry kenny to reprise lion- o, and saying 'anyone who doesn’t like your new show is a poopy face with poopy opinions ’”

So much this. Roar was “in” the Thundercats universe, but was actively antagonistic towards both its former history as well as its own fans. It’s possible to do a show that goes a different direction while still respecting its universe and lore and definitely NOT hating on fans of the franchise as if the fans are a “problem” that has to be antagonized.

2 Likes

Your scientists Disney executives were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.

1 Like

I must be a terrible fan as enjoyed both the new He-Man series, and the She-Ra reboot from the other year…

When it comes to stuff like this I try to judge it on what it is, not necessarily on what the show-runners or other fans tell me it is suppose to be.

As a someone who has been with Transformers since it was launched, and GI Joe almost as long (I started watching a bit after TF when Joe was moved to a better timeslot) and have invested quite a bit into most franchises, I am used to almost constant reboots and reimaginings. Some i’ve loved, some I don’t, but a no point have I felt either franchise was “ruined” or needed saving. the only constant is change, I know not all things produced for TF are meant for me, I know some storylines I am truly enjoying will end not because the story is over but the whim of somebody in an office looking at analytics and deciding to end a licensing agreement or moving something out of the way cause it doesn’t jive with the tome they want for another project.

Change happens, you don’t have to like it but it will happen, and the level of gatekeeping by some so called “Real Fans” angers me more than any cooperate decisions. Who is anyone to tell my daughter she is wrong as she actually enjoyed Jar Jar, or that she could identify more with Rey or Ashoka than Luke.

4 Likes

Really, the whole idea of a fictional franchise being “ruined” because some additions to the franchise are bad is silly. I don’t like the prequels at all, but that doesn’t make The Empire Strikes Back any less of an amazing movie or The Return of the Jedi a movie I have a fond memory of seeing in the theater as a child. Those memories aren’t erased because of Jar Jar Binks.

3 Likes

Heck, there were comics and books published after Star Wars came out that were made non canon when Empire came out. There were unhappy people then that it didn’t follow what they thought was the proper canon.

The changes after the Disney take over render Heir to the Empire and all the x-wing books to the side, but it doesn’t change how much I enjoyed them. And I’m still likely to pre-order a Corran Horn Black Series figure if one gets announced.

As far as ruined/fixing stuff goes, just avoid some conversations within the Super Sentai/Power Rangers base. Every new series becomes a point of contention.

1 Like

I don’t think Star Wars needs saving. It’s not dying, it’s evolving. I do not think the Disney+ shows are cheap by any means. I liked some more than others, but I don’t think they are cheaply made or produced.

1 Like

Lot of She-Hulk shade on an adaptation of a comic book that regularly pulled the same joke.

6 Likes

Its evolving … no one debates that particular point. But into what? The box office returns on episodes 7-9 do not indicate that it is evolving into something that audiences are as interested in. Adjusted for inflation …

  1. A New Hope: 1.6 billion
  2. Force Awakens: 1.04 billion
  3. Empire Strikes Back: 823 million
  4. Return of the Jedi: 772 million
  5. Phantom Menace: 732 million
  6. The Last Jedi: 662 million
  7. Rogue One: 579 million
  8. Rise of Skywalker: 527 million
  9. Revenge of the Sith: 514 million
  10. Attack of the Clones: 454 million
  11. Solo: 223 million

Now - in fairness the first three movies have had multiple theatrical releases but IMO it reinforces the point that people want to go see the older Star Wars movies multiple times while I doubt there would be much of any interest in seeing theatrical re-releases of episodes 7-9. Regardless, the only movie in the new stable that did well was - predictably - the one that was the most similar to the old movie formulas. Last Jedi was 40% lower than TFA, and RoS was almost half as much in tickets … while Solo is the biggest flop in the franchise. It can’t be said that Star Wars is evolving in a good direction from this information. Rather, it is arguable devolving into a smaller, lesser, weaker, less popular thing that doesn’t resonate with audiences nearly as much.

The one thing that can be said is that 7-9 improved on 4-6 … but since 4-6 were such weak movies that’s not really saying a lot.

1 Like

Based on pure Box Office that goes without saying, however there is a huge difference in box office expectations currently than there used to be, and that does have an effect.

The reality when A New Hope premiered was that you have got to see this go get a ticket now. Can I wait? well it could be on TV at some point in a couple years…

The reality when Phantom Menace premiered was Oh my God new Star Wars got to go. Can I wait? well it should be on home release within a year.

The reality when Force Awakens premiered was new Star Wars… will it be good? Can I wait? Well Netflix should get it at some point soon.

Viewing habits are not the same as they were, even before the Pandy. I am more or less caught up on Marvel but the last one I saw in theater was Ant-Man and the Wasp. with my current lifestyle I don’t feel the need for a night out to watch something I know I can watch on Disney+ in a matter of months.

Are Box Office numbers still important? Yes.
Are they the end all, be all arbiter they once were? not at all.

3 Likes

I’m exactly the same. I enjoy seeing movies in the theater, but if Black Panther 2 is going to be on Disney+ within a couple of months anyway, I’m not going to spend extra to see it.

3 Likes

That’s a good point. I’m trying to remember the last (new release) movie I actually watched in a theater. Maybe Endgame??

Knowing that anything Disney produces will be on D+ within a few weeks, or the fact that I can rent the BluRay within a couple of months is a big incentive not to deal with the expense, not to mention the rude theatergoers around me.

There is something to be said about anticipation, though. And that might be where Disney stumbled. They had a grand plan of telling a main story (The Force Awakens trilogy) with side stories interspersed between them, so there would be a new SW movie in theater every year, but from different angles. The idea/hope was to expand the universe in two different ways with a big main plot thread and then these smaller one-offs.

On paper, it looks great. A wide variety of SW content covering different things, and a new SW movie in theaters every year. (Keep in mind Marvel was releasing two, sometimes three MCU movies in a year and fans couldn’t buy tickets fast enough.)

What they hadn’t counted on was story fatigue. Star Wars fans seem to want more space between releases than the suits had anticipated. In that regard, the D+ shows are doing much better. They are releasing two per year and that seems to be holding fans’ interest better.

1 Like

I’ve had a bit of a headache/braincloud all day… I thought everyone in the thread was giving all of the Disney shows a barely-passing grade of D+. All morning I wondered why people on both sides of a fairly robust disagreement had all assigned the exact same grade, and where they had developed the debate discipline to use the epithet so consistently.

4 Likes

that’s just the thing though. This thought process was NOT around when episodes 1-6 Where released. EVERY die hard fan wanted to see it before spoilers hit. Toy sales where so big, they had trouble keeping things in stock, and fans mobbed stores at midnight releases for new stuff and spoilers. that doesn’t happen anymore.

With the new movies? They start off big, and in the case of everything after the last Jedi, they dropped off FAAAAAST.

Yeah, people use the Pandemic as an Excuse, but most of this stuff hit before the Pandemic, like the Last Jedi. As I recall, back then, ‘school and holiday issues’ where the excuse why the sales dropped off a cliff. but it happened again with TROS.

And if you don’t think the new breed of people in charge of KathyFilm hate Luke Skywalker, look at what was spotted at one employees desk. They HATE luke skywalker, the lead of the franchise.

Did you see the rest of phase 4 in the theaters? if so, why suddenly signal out BP2? Maybe because phase 4 hasn’t been good, and you no longer feel the need to go to it to see what happens next would be my guess.

I loved everything from phase 1-phase 3 (minus captain marvel, which I skipped, cause banned reasons). I wanted to go to the theater all the way to the end and NOT wait till it got to Blu-Ray. When you produce good stuff, like Top Gun, and the public knows it’s being done with respect, and for the right reasons, people will go see it.

But, I knew the direction phase 4 WANTED to go, and skipped it altogether. Not because my movie going was changing, or Because I lost interest. But I didn’t want to support increasingly bad decisions in movie making that lead up to things like She-Hulk.

1 Like

last movie I think I saw was Ghostbusters, Afterlife. Again, Anticipation + knowing it was done FOR the fans and FOR The right reasons made it a hit.

And the Problem with Disney wars is simple. These people HAVE NO PLAN.

Look at all the trilogies that where announced, but never happened. At LEAST three, Starting with Ruin Johnson. Stand Alone movies like Rogue Squadron and series like the Acolyte also look like no goes. Look at all the directors that where let go for ‘creative differences’. Look at how much money was wasted reshooting obi-wan. The original excuse by Kathy was ‘it was too dark’…but we later learned it was to take the focus off of a luke story and making Lea the main character.

And NOW we know they want to reboot episodes 4-5 and 6…making Lea the Lead Jedi, and putting Luke in her Roll. This is supposedly Kathy’s grand dream to cement her legacy and truly make star wars ‘hers’.

There’s no such thing as fatigue in the case of Star Wars, IMHO. it’s lots of bad product, lots of attacks on the fans (like Pablo Hidalgo bullying that kid with cancer(?) who cried at the return of real luke skywalker on mando)…and dozens of other bad decisions.

any time they gain something with john and dave in charge, the kathy faction has to take it back ten steps.

1 Like