Film Noir

I’m not against terming it Coen Noir possibly. The tonal flourishes, the irreverence, the various subplots, and even the Western flourishes as evidenced by Sam park it on firmly Coen territory and its idiosyncrasy is too flippant, digressive, and informal despite some formal trappings. On top of that, it digests as a medley of filmic elements not exclusively enough as a noir to be described so at least by me but I grant elements of it exist in the picture only not enough to coin it one where I’m standing.

@Ron. I too eyed it on neo-noir listings. Problem is your Oxford Google definition states “a style of cinematographic film marked by a mood of pessimism, fatalism, and menace.” In The Big Lebowski (1998), I do not detect pessimism or fatalism in ample enough quantities for it to feel like noir. Lebowski emphasizes menace at times (a Coen specialty) along with satire, modern comic tropes, heightened action, and dolops of incomprehension alien to noir as its most commonly found. Is this smiling face below anything you’d normally see in noir? I answer. Not really. Lewbowski is a feature length sitcom and offers a comfort food vibe film noir won’t normally offer.

The Big Lebowski Film GIF by The Good Films

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Low hanging fruit, isn’t it? We all are aware of that line by now. Words mean things. And if noir can practically mean anything than what does it stand for? Yes it’s my opinion yet BASED on the annals and form of noir as a guide. And that my friend is more than an opinion, it’s history.

Let’s agree to disagree

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Indeed. We will. :wink:

As an olive branch, I’m open to calling it Coen Noir. As long as the Coen is firmly attached to the title.

noir: a type of crime film featuring cynical malevolent characters in a sleazy setting and an ominous atmosphere that is conveyed by shadowy photography and foreboding background music

Dictionary definition would apply, to say nothing of being a kind of remake of two noir classics.

But it’s like arguing whether a hot dog is a sandwich. The Coens are sui generis.

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When I was in college Siskel and Ebert made an appearance, and of course they were asked about their favorite movies. They refused to answer, but each said their favorite scene was the cat and the shoes in The Third Man.

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A friend of mine and I recently riffed on D.O.A., supposedly a ripe example of noir. Let’s just say it’s not good.

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The Coens are the wild factor. They incorporate and expand what’s possible which is why we’re in this discussion. The foundations of The Big Lebowski (1998) are fitting of a crime film occupying sleazy settings and housing cynical malevolent characters. So by that ledger, by its ingredients that is a recipe for film noir. Is the result film noir? I truthfully plead the fifth. One may have pepperoni, marinara sauce, and sausage but if it’s a casserole does that make it pizza or pizza pasta? By that logic, is Lebowski noir comedy or is that seeming contradiction so stark a trespass of what noir traditionally is that it becomes another thing entirely? It definitely is The Big Lebowski on that we agree. What The Big Lebowski is in itself is up to each of us I think.

Much to the frustration of those who like to categorize things, aesthetics is very much about blurring, bending, mixing, and defying genres. Oh, and ignoring them entirely. Heh.

You think so? I really liked D.O.A.

Edit: Okay, I thought I was some sort of outlier. It has 88% on Rotten Tomatoes. Why didn’t you like it?

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Agreed but one can become so lost in the weeds as to forget one’s gut reaction. For me, it is the totality of it all as it hits me that dictates itself and my takeaway. I grew up with noir, adore its established form, comprehend its artistry and identity, and it is a real estate of its own. The remarkable nature of cinema and the classics is the adoption of new twists and turns that revitalize old formulas while balancing the recipe or opening new subgenres altogether. My disagreement isn’t categorization moviegique it’s feel. The Big Lebowski (1998) on final takeaway when drinking it in acts like a comedy not a noir. I can look at it later and catergorize it’s noir by discecting its parts though my issue isn’t adherence to form but overall sense of what it is upon completion and seeing it and that verdict is closer to the Farrelly Brothers than Fritz Lang. For me.

Stepping back… Art works when you understand its purpose even if that purpose is chaos. Even a feeling is enough. The bead on what something is is necessary in understanding intent and most importantly what you walk away from it with. I’ll simply say my stroll back home from The Big Lebowski (1998) afterwards is clutching different groceries than some of you and it is one’s individual read that can’t be lost. How it strikes you is just as important as what it is.

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Bear in mind I haven’t even thought about it for a few months. As I remember the premise was deep and bizarre, but I didn’t think the writing really sustained it. I didn’t think the acting was particularly good, either, and I usually really like Edmond O’Brien. At the end when he’s just finished walking the entire city but crashes to the floor in sudden death, that just didn’t work for me. At least he had the decency not to mess up the cop’s desk.

But I liked Beverly Garland! Rowrrr!

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D.O.A. is a noir classic but it it’s also very B-movie. I like it but I recall it being weak in certain regards that I couldn’t nail down without watching it again. (The line lifted from Casablanca is a little cheesy, though it may not have been original to Casablanca: “You’re like any other man, only more so.”)

Also, I think it gave us Breathless, which is inexcusable.

“I have no response to that.” – Meg Ryan, Joe vs. The Volcano

I enjoyed the Coen brothers for years without the faintest glimmer of their purpose beyond a particular aesthetic. A Simple Man (2008) is the movie that really tied the room together. It was the film where I said, “Oh, I get it now. I see what every other (and future!) film is all about.”

In fact, I think they tipped their hand a little bit more than they wanted to in that film. Heh.

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I didn’t think my little comment would spark this! You have both given more thought than I about whether Lebowski is a noir.
My final vote: I love this movie, no matter how it is defined :smiling_face:

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blade runner GIF

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We’re watching this (2 episodes left) and we’ve, basically, lost interest. Is there something that we are missing, or are we too sober? :laughing: :tumbler_glass:

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I think you’re thinking of something else. That’s from the movie Blade Runner.

And I just noticed the Pan Am ad which I never noticed before. Whoops.

Well, they didn’t know…

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