After discussion, the Mods have elected to reopen this thread. Please remain on MST3K topic, and keep in mind our community guidelines regarding kindness / respect towards cast, crew, & fellow forum-beings.
Thank you kindly!
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Thank you for reopening. While the salt came out a few times, both sides have shared positions that are definitely worth exploring.
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i disagree. the voice fits fine.
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Kelsey’s Crow is great as is, and the only reason why her Crow should be destroyed is that Emily and Tom decide to have a game of bowling or something else. Then show up the very next sketch without a mark, just like other Crows have done.
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If you don’t like the performer’s interpretation of the character or the character’s voice, that’s fine. The Powers That Be hired the performer for a reason–reason being they thought that performer was right for the job. If you don’t like the choice they made, you don’t have to watch. And if you are a Backer, you don’t have to donate in the future if you don’t like the choices the showrunners made.
May we all remember that age ol’ saying “It’s just a show…I should really just relax.”
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My issue here and elsewhere, isn’t with people not liking Kelsey, or her voice. There were people who didn’t like Kevin’s voice, there are people who didn’t like Baron, and complained about him being the weak link. That’s fine, people have opinions. But in all my years of following this show, of discussing it on forums and such, never, ever, has it been suggested that Kevin should be given another bot, or that Baron’s Servo should be destroyed. And I know people say it’s not a sexism thing, but I find it curious that the only person who has had to put up with that, is a woman.
Now, some of us have put her in another category, “she’s voicing a simulator bot, so she not a real Crow, so that makes it different”, and yet… not a damn word about Conor’s Servo being in the same boat, nor any suggestion that he should have a new bot too?
In another thread a member used the word “demean”, I agree, this demeans Kelsey, as a performer and as a human being, it also demeans our fanbase - that she’s the sole puppeteer and voice actor being treated like this. You don’t like her or her voice, fine, I’m not asking you too, but this other stuff, it’s like telling her to go sit at the children’s table, that she shouldn’t have a place with the adults - oh, but Conor, you can take that seat next to Josh, Kevin and Baron, that’s okay.
I’m sorry, I can’t be polite and respectful about that. It’s angering and sad… but okay, I’ve said my peace, so I’ll step away, mute the thread so I won’t be tempted to return and get more depressed and upset than I already am and get my butt banned.
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I can’t speak for anyone else, but while it’s easy to argue that, because they’re bots, they don’t have a sex, the plain fact of the matter is that for 30 years they’ve been voiced by men and referred to as male. That makes them effectively male, like it or not. And it’s a major shift to have Crow voiced by a female. It’s not necessarily sexist to be surprised by that kind of change and to be bothered by that kind of change. People do get attached to characters and changes in voices are troubling but changes in fundamental aspects of the character are harder to deal with for some people. Yes, it’s possible that the person just hates women, but it’s not required to be bothered by this change.
I think Kelsey has great timing and does a great job with the riffing. I only wish she’d use something closer to her own voice, and perhaps, like Kevin and Bill did when they took over, she’s starting with a deeper, gravelly voice that will gradually shift to something more like her natural voice. I hope so… and it would probably be easier on her to speak naturally, too. I always thought that one of the reasons Gypsy wasn’t around as much early on was because of how Jim Mallon (and later Patrick Brantseg) did her voice. It sounds very difficult.
Anyway, that’s my two cents.
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That’s not what I’m talking about, people want to be upset by the voice that’s their prerogative. I’m not talking about surprise or people who can’t deal with change. Though in regard to sex, in this day and age, you’d think we’d be more enlightened by such things, but okay, we’re not.
What I’m talking about is there being a double standard. You can hate Baron’s voice and personality, and you can do the same with Kelsey… but between the two it’s only Kelsey who needs to have a new bot?
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They should start season 14 with a segment where the Mads request Emily destroy and rebuild Crow, but when she’s done Crow is rebuilt as Crow.
Kinga: We told you to rebuild him!
Emily: I did! I used all the parts I had, and the parts were just enough to make another Crow.
Kinga: That’s not what we meant.
Emily: Well you should have been more specific.
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Yes, you’re right. Kelsey’s Crow is fully Crow. No loopholes. Full stop. Same as any actor of any gender who has played The Doctor in Doctor Who is just as much The Doctor as anyone else no matter who you may prefer.
Like what you like. Dislike what you don’t. That’s always fair game. But to get to play an iconic role like Crow is a big deal for anyone and it’s casually dismissive to suggest it be taken away from her to give her something else that would be less than just because it would make some feel better about a change.
I’ll admit that I’m way more flexible with changes than some. I have grown up loving live theater and much of the joy of that comes from seeing the different ways talented professionals tackle the same role. So I’m able to accept that and it’s not a blocker for me to enjoy the work. That’s not the reality of some and I so feel sorry for those folks who can’t move forward as quickly or at all. Fortunately I have every confidence in the creative folks behind the show as they care about this thing so much.
They want it to succeed. They also want it to continue to grow and expand. To do that, they have to break that down to what the show is at its essence. It’s a fun show with a bunch of smart and funny misfits who make fun of movies because it sure beats complaining all the time. To accomplish this, one can be a man, a woman, neither, or a little bit of whatever you got. In 2022, there are way more seats at the table for all identities in front of and behind the camera and that is a positive thing.
I hope all who aren’t feeling it now can find their way back. This show is incredibly responsive to feedback when given in the spirit of care (the Cabal/Kabahl feedback was clearly heard as was the change in GPC’s name). They want to put on a great product that makes people feel good because they love this show so much. But just because a show is intended to be enjoyed by everyone doesn’t mean it will be. You can’t make something for a wide audience and not understand that taste and opinion vary. So there will always be those who just won’t be able to come along. In those cases, as a creative, you just gotta trust your gut and entrust your amazing cast and crew to continue to do good work.
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I made it clear that I didn’t enjoy the new crow voice too… but I acknowledge that they already recorded all of the episodes and there isn’t going to be any change this season. We don’t need this kind of thread every single emily episode.
Some folks really don’t like her voice… They get it they heard us… Kesley herself acknowledged the feedback…
Time to move on.
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This has big "why did they change insert character here into insert different race/gender-energy, and I am cringing so hard I feel myself compressing into a ball of concentrated second-hand embarrassment.
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Seconded.
Not liking the voice is one thing. That happens; personally, I’m still struggling a little with Matt Vogel as Kermit 3.0.
But suggesting that the bot be destroyed or that Crow be explicitly gendered as female with Ms. Pac-Man bow and lips (despite the fact the two episodes have made it clear via Crownoun usage he’s still male)…at that point intent is close to irrelevant because it comes off as something dark and ugly, the kind of thing I’ve seen push people off websites or out of fandoms in the past.
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Ok…You’re wrong because I like her version of Crow’s voice.
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Kelsey is great. I like her Crow a lot. And I cannot wait to see what she can do when she’s in complete control of the bot (puppetry and voice). I know it’s going to be awesome. I also can’t wait to officially, officially meet her in person. Kelsey’s Crow rocks.
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“If this robot made from surplus sports equipment isn’t obviously female by the standards of several decades ago then I don’t want it” feels like such a weird line to draw and defend.
Crow is a robot. If it helps for you to think of Crow as female in order to appreciate the voice, Crow doesn’t need to change anything, you need to change.
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Based on the TikToks I was directed to, she’s a great puppeteer. I hope she gets to do more puppeteering on the show.
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Johnny’s hair, by the way, is on loan from the Bobby Goldsboro Institute.
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And yet Johnny still doesn’t care.
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If Crow is rebuilt, is it still Crow? I say no. The “new” GPC is now GPC2, after all. OP is lobbying for a new 'Bot, it seems, not a new Crow. And that’s fine in a vacuum, but that’s not how MST3K works canonically, with Crow, Tom and a host in the theater.
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